NEWS3

[grandmasterstab]

graceworn said:

cog05 said:

Right, but I think he wanted more reasons why the "peak of art and science" path would be bad in the long run.

If everyone's occupied with art and science, who's just doing what needs to be done? Making sure we get food? Keeping things clean?

Plus, there's the old adage that once you reach the top, there's nowhere to go but down.

Struggle is part of the human experience, particularly in Greek culture. Even today, if you ask a Greek how he's doing, he'll likely respond with something to the effect of "We are struggling." It embodies the idea that they're still working hard. It's the work, not the outcome, that matters.

Who is to say what the peak is, though? I'm sure 15th England wouldn't have ever though mankind could ever reach the level we have today.

[god]

graceworn said:

cog05 said:

Right, but I think he wanted more reasons why the "peak of art and science" path would be bad in the long run.

If everyone's occupied with art and science, who's just doing what needs to be done? Making sure we get food? Keeping things clean?

Plus, there's the old adage that once you reach the top, there's nowhere to go but down.

Struggle is part of the human experience, particularly in Greek culture. Even today, if you ask a Greek how he's doing, he'll likely respond with something to the effect of "We are struggling." It embodies the idea that they're still working hard. It's the work, not the outcome, that matters.

Quite.
What good is the end, if the means to get there aren't somthing you can be proud of as well. For an example, sure, you're rich, but you were a loan shark to get there. Sure, you're at the "top of the heap", but you killed everyone on the lower rungs to get there.

You don't know where you're going 'till you get there, so enjoy the ride, and make that ride somthing good and worth remembering.

[esteed]

While there's something to be said for progression in the arts and sciences, I do agree that there are jobs that just need to be done for the sake of society. Artists would have no place to shelter them from the cold if there weren't construction workers out there building homes and apartment buildings. Writers wouldn't be able to retreat to a quaint little cabin if there was no one to build it. Artists would be unable to make money off of their art because everyone else would be trying to do the same thing, rather than making the money that they would then use to purchase the art.

All of these issues would apply to science as well (who would fund scientific research?) and there's also other things to consider when thinking about science. Read Frankenstein. Read Jekyll & Hyde. Science can go too far. Part of the entire point of Frankenstein is that just because a man could create life without the aid of another being, or even the fundamental processes of life that cause it, doesn't mean he should. Victor Frankenstein, with the best of intentions, set out to discover a way to cheat death. Instead he learned to create a new kind of genesis, a new and unnatural type of birth. Unfortunately, in his hubris, he forgot to take into account that a body patched together from parts of other bodies is going to look hideous when it gets up off that table. Unable to deal with what he considered a failed creation at best, or an abomination at worst, he shunned and abandoned it. He didn't even have the mercy to put the thing down, so it would never have to face the prejudices and hatreds of human society.

Imagine what one man like that could do with nuclear power.

[popejaimie]

graceworn said:

cog05 said:

Right, but I think he wanted more reasons why the "peak of art and science" path would be bad in the long run.

If everyone's occupied with art and science, who's just doing what needs to be done? Making sure we get food? Keeping things clean?

Plus, there's the old adage that once you reach the top, there's nowhere to go but down.

Struggle is part of the human experience, particularly in Greek culture. Even today, if you ask a Greek how he's doing, he'll likely respond with something to the effect of "We are struggling." It embodies the idea that they're still working hard. It's the work, not the outcome, that matters.

If everyone's occupied with art and science, then obviously, no one NEEDS to be making sure everyone's fed, or someone would be doing it... it's not like everyone's going to forget that they need to eat. One of the wonderful things about science is it is possible to eventually replace human labor. Just make machines.

And, similar to what grandmasterstab says, who says there's a "peak" at all? Who says that humans won't just keep rising, getting better, smarter, faster?

And I'm not sure why humans HAVE to struggle. We have to this point, as far as I can tell, struggled only because we have had to, and the times when people struggle when they DON'T have to is simply because that's what society is used to. If anyone finds a way to live comfortably, without working hard, people call them lazy, call them a crook. Why? Because they don't want to work? Why is working like a DOG more human than just kicking back, pursuing your own INTELLECTUAL hobbies?

What is so horrible about quantum jump, anyway?

[graceworn]

It's a matter of personal philosophy, really. In my experience, you only really appreciate something if you work for it. The thing that makes happiness even better is its contrast with hardship. Back to that whole duality thing...

[god]

Exactly. We wouldn't appreciate love if we didn't know hate. We wouldn't appreciate the light if there was no darkness.

[ilovetofix]

I thought about responding to kitrona's question (which many of you seem to wonder as well) privately but have decided I can say all I can here.

Balance is a necessity. It has existed ever since the Nothing and the Everything were born from Existence. On all planes of existence, it is important. Mankind must progress, but it must progress naturally. Calliope's path would be a jump mankind is not yet prepared to take, and once you reach the peak, you will have nowhere to go but down. You might think that an "advanced" society can prevent this. That is arrogance. All empires fall eventually, but the longer it takes for you to reach your peak, the longer it will take to fall.

Our path will delay this fall.

[kitrona]

Actually, what I was getting at (and I'm female, by the way) was that if we DON'T reach the pinnacle, we stagnate anyway. So I don't see the point of NOT reaching the pinnacle of human achievement.

And if you think people won't struggle anyway, I have to think you're mistaken. People struggle all the time, and if this "peak" is in only 6 years, I don't see a lot of relief from that struggling for the majority of the population.

Edit: Thank you for your answer, Love. I think I understand better now. It's a delaying of reaching the pinnacle, then, rather than not reaching it.

Interesting. I'll have to think on this. Incidentally, is there another name you'd prefer we referred to you by besides Love?

[ilovetofix]

I lost my real name long ago.

[sartor]

If it is human nature to struggle even if we have reached the top, one asks, is it not natural to believe in an ideal that is higher and more perfect than the current reality? The search for a goal (or more simply, the act of striving itself), can be said to be part of man's natural curiosity.

The question becomes, is Paranoia's intervention a "push" back to our natural condition? In nearing the possible peak of our civilization, are we approaching a concrete goal, or are we changing our outlook? Are we ceasing to strive? If this is the case, it is fitting that the final cap to man's creativity would not be the attainment of some goal but the end of his search for one.

Not with a bang, but a whimper.

[Killian]

Well, in that case, how would you prefer us to address you? I've seen "Love", "Mr. Fixit", "The PM", and a few others. If there is one you prefer or would rather be called, could you let us know? Or would you prefer to remain nameless and apart from us, since an identity would only serve to humanize you?

[ilovetofix]

Call me whatever you wish.

[khomeini]

You say you lost your real name long ago, how long have you been in the service of Father Paranoia?

[loque]

I'll call you Jim after Jim'll fix it.

www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A490420
(A link if you are interested.)

Jim, today I'd like to ask another question.

Are you involved in the creative arts? (As in a musician or author.)
If so, have you ever had your work published? (As in printed in mass by a known publisher for public review.)

[ilovetofix]

loque said:

I'll call you Jim after Jim'll fix it.

www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A490420
(A link if you are interested.)

Jim, today I'd like to ask another question.

Are you involved in the creative arts? (As in a musician or author.)
If so, have you ever had your work published? (As in printed in mass by a known publisher for public review.)

I am afraid not.